Comments on: The Dark Side of Barbie http://bl1y.com/?p=582 The Life and Adventures of a Defunct Big Law Associate Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:33:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Guano Dubango http://bl1y.com/?p=582&cpage=1#comment-398 Guano Dubango Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:30:53 +0000 http://bl1y.com/?p=582#comment-398 As a man of color, I have been able to hold my own, and have been ok so far. However, there are not many men from Africa in the law, let alone at my firm. I believe that as long as I can continue to do the work, I will be retained. However, no one is retaining me because I am Black, nor do I have any special connections here, as I do in Accra. As a man of color, I have been able to hold my own, and have been ok so far. However, there are not many men from Africa in the law, let alone at my firm. I believe that as long as I can continue to do the work, I will be retained. However, no one is retaining me because I am Black, nor do I have any special connections here, as I do in Accra.

]]> By: bl1y http://bl1y.com/?p=582&cpage=1#comment-366 bl1y Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:52:08 +0000 http://bl1y.com/?p=582#comment-366 That would be true if schools gave really precise grades, but they don't. Law school curve have an extremely fat curve, with very little on the low end. Here's NYU's curve A+: 0-2% (target = 1%) A: 7-13% (target = 10%) A-: 16-24% (target = 20%) Maximum for A tier = 31% B+: 22-30% (target = 26%) Maximum grades above B = 57% B: remainder B-: 4-8% (target = 6%) C/D/F: 0-5% Looking at a student's grades, there are basically three different groups; smarty pants (31%), average students (63%), and dumb asses (6%). The guy at the 40th percentile has very similar grades to the guy at the 80th percentile, but they are definitely at two different levels of intelligence. It gets even worse at schools where grades have been done away with. You can't distinguish a transcript that reads Pass-Pass-Pass-Pass from another that reads Pass-Pass-Pass-Pass, even though the two students are wildly different. Your argument would work, if only firms really could recruit based on student grades. That would be true if schools gave really precise grades, but they don’t. Law school curve have an extremely fat curve, with very little on the low end. Here’s NYU’s curve

A+: 0-2% (target = 1%)
A: 7-13% (target = 10%)
A-: 16-24% (target = 20%)
Maximum for A tier = 31%
B+: 22-30% (target = 26%)
Maximum grades above B = 57%
B: remainder
B-: 4-8% (target = 6%)
C/D/F: 0-5%

Looking at a student’s grades, there are basically three different groups; smarty pants (31%), average students (63%), and dumb asses (6%). The guy at the 40th percentile has very similar grades to the guy at the 80th percentile, but they are definitely at two different levels of intelligence.

It gets even worse at schools where grades have been done away with. You can’t distinguish a transcript that reads Pass-Pass-Pass-Pass from another that reads Pass-Pass-Pass-Pass, even though the two students are wildly different.

Your argument would work, if only firms really could recruit based on student grades.

]]> By: big vic http://bl1y.com/?p=582&cpage=1#comment-359 big vic Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:34:29 +0000 http://bl1y.com/?p=582#comment-359 hold on, hold on - even if it is true that significant numbers of minority applicants were accepted onto JD programs by virtue of being a minority (which has not been proved, just argued)...that's not relevant to law firms' hiring practices at the other end of law school. In other words, if minority students are getting hired into law firms, it's not just because of affirmative action - that stage is done - it's because they're in the same pool as everyone else who had their GPA/skills/experience/whatever. and if they're being recruited on the same terms as their GPA peers, one would expect them to be laid off on much the same terms...if everything was in order. hold on, hold on – even if it is true that significant numbers of minority applicants were accepted onto JD programs by virtue of being a minority (which has not been proved, just argued)…that’s not relevant to law firms’ hiring practices at the other end of law school.

In other words, if minority students are getting hired into law firms, it’s not just because of affirmative action – that stage is done – it’s because they’re in the same pool as everyone else who had their GPA/skills/experience/whatever. and if they’re being recruited on the same terms as their GPA peers, one would expect them to be laid off on much the same terms…if everything was in order.

]]> By: Snowman http://bl1y.com/?p=582&cpage=1#comment-341 Snowman Wed, 10 Mar 2010 03:07:05 +0000 http://bl1y.com/?p=582#comment-341 I especially agree with your point when considering that because of affirmative action, minority students at tier 1 schools got accepted despite having the same GPA and LSAT scores of white TTT students. I especially agree with your point when considering that because of affirmative action, minority students at tier 1 schools got accepted despite having the same GPA and LSAT scores of white TTT students.

]]> By: bl1y http://bl1y.com/?p=582&cpage=1#comment-340 bl1y Wed, 10 Mar 2010 03:03:34 +0000 http://bl1y.com/?p=582#comment-340 I picked those numbers because they made for easy math. I can a more realistic example if you really want. Firm has 10 partners (all white), 21 associates (18 white, 3 black). The firm is 9.7% black. The firm lays off 7 associates, 6 white, 1 black. Now the firm is 8.3% black. It still takes a hit on its diversity score card despite not acting in a discriminatory manner. I picked those numbers because they made for easy math. I can a more realistic example if you really want.

Firm has 10 partners (all white), 21 associates (18 white, 3 black). The firm is 9.7% black. The firm lays off 7 associates, 6 white, 1 black. Now the firm is 8.3% black. It still takes a hit on its diversity score card despite not acting in a discriminatory manner.

]]> By: TristanH http://bl1y.com/?p=582&cpage=1#comment-339 TristanH Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:50:12 +0000 http://bl1y.com/?p=582#comment-339 I understood your point bl1y. While I note that your argument is compelling on its face, it is based on an underlying premise that is divorced from reality, i.e. a big firm exists where 1/3 of the associates are black. We may just be discussing the issue on two different levels, the theoretical explanation vs. the real world. I understood your point bl1y. While I note that your argument is compelling on its face, it is based on an underlying premise that is divorced from reality, i.e. a big firm exists where 1/3 of the associates are black. We may just be discussing the issue on two different levels, the theoretical explanation vs. the real world.

]]> By: bl1y http://bl1y.com/?p=582&cpage=1#comment-338 bl1y Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:30:28 +0000 http://bl1y.com/?p=582#comment-338 Tristan: You missed the point. I wasn't saying that those were the actual numbers, how things actually go down. I was merely trying to illustrate that non-discriminatory layoffs can still decrease a firm's percentage of black attorneys because minority attorneys are more heavily concentrated in the junior ranks, which is where layoffs happen. Tristan: You missed the point. I wasn’t saying that those were the actual numbers, how things actually go down. I was merely trying to illustrate that non-discriminatory layoffs can still decrease a firm’s percentage of black attorneys because minority attorneys are more heavily concentrated in the junior ranks, which is where layoffs happen.

]]> By: Bill http://bl1y.com/?p=582&cpage=1#comment-336 Bill Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:01:01 +0000 http://bl1y.com/?p=582#comment-336 Hey, fire the worst associates, Black or White. If this means the firm gets whiter, so be it. If the whites are dumb, then the firm gets blacker. No one should keep a white guy on if he's dumber. Nor should they keep a black guy on if he's dumber. Nuff said, man. Hey, fire the worst associates, Black or White. If this means the firm gets whiter, so be it. If the whites are dumb, then the firm gets blacker.

No one should keep a white guy on if he’s dumber. Nor should they keep a black guy on if he’s dumber.

Nuff said, man.

]]> By: TristanH http://bl1y.com/?p=582&cpage=1#comment-335 TristanH Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:43:20 +0000 http://bl1y.com/?p=582#comment-335 You make a compelling argument, but your numbers are off. In reality, the numbers are closer to 10 partners, 20 associates (17 white, 3 black). The recession hits and 2 black associates and 3 white associates are laid off. You make a compelling argument, but your numbers are off. In reality, the numbers are closer to 10 partners, 20 associates (17 white, 3 black). The recession hits and 2 black associates and 3 white associates are laid off.

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